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<p>Yeah, that sounds closer. Well, whatever it is, if David had it
as swag, I would definitely buy one.<br>
</p>
<p>Hmm, the 'mil-spec' VT100 that I stumbled over doesn't <i>quite</i>
look like an RT100. What I saw was white and I don't recall it
having a membrane keyboard. The screen wasn't quite shaped like
an RT100.</p>
<p>Of course, this was at 3:00 in the morning with no overhead
lights on as I was hurrying back from Federal Systems' 2020 to get
back to work on 2116. And 31 years ago...<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/23/20 7:21 PM, Johnny Billquist
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4e5010bc-3edc-b4b5-c24f-a61fbdfff672@softjar.se">Oh how
quickly people forget. :-)
<br>
<br>
The correct quote is:
<br>
If your computer don't have 36 bits, you are not playing with a
full DEC.
<br>
<br>
The "mil-spec" VT100 was probably the RT100:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter8.html">https://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter8.html</a> (oh how I hate the
"everything should be using https"...)
<br>
<br>
Johnny
<br>
<br>
On 2020-04-24 00:15, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Sir, I stand *corrected* and do humbly
admit my errors. I didn't see anything Orange on the mac.io
website, so I just assumed... I didn't go to the Facebook site
because I won't have a thing to do with their policies, stated
or covert.
<br>
<br>
A memory surfaced and I realized that I was also completely
wrong about the 2020's networking capabilities, too. In 1979,
DEC's Federal Systems group had a 2020 on the ARPAnet and I used
it to send email to some of my pals at MIT LCS when I working
2nd and 3rd shift. So the hardware existed to communicate with
an IMP and MIT used it implement TCP/IP on ITS. This is
simulated by the KLH10 2020 implementation and that's how ITS
communicates today.
<br>
<br>
Federal Systems was a real hike from manufacturing in Marlboro
where I used to hang out; three buildings away. It was also
notable for having mil-spec VT100's. Instead of plastic, they
were made out of very thick metal, I think maybe machined
aluminum. The cables where sheathed in metal and the connectors
were substantially enlarged and strengthened. The display glass
also had a dense metal screen in front of it. They really
looked like they could withstand a hand grenade and weighed a
ton... Well that's what I thought at the time, another
alternative that didn't occur to me until decades later was that
all this just could have been RF shielding.
<br>
<br>
I had left DEC and was at Columbia before the Internet role out,
so I don't know whether Tops-20 4.1, the last official release
for the 2020, supported TCP/IP. I just can't remember, darn
it... I know that Tops-20 5.0 supported TCP/IP AND that MRC was
able to port 5.0 to the 2020. LingLing was on the Internet from
time to time. That must have been some hack; by late version 3,
it was seen that the monitor was running out of address space
and when the hardware folks suggested eliminating the symbol
table, the monitor folks flipped as debugging would have been
effectively hatcheted.
<br>
<br>
The solution for 4.1 was one of the finest hacks I have ever
heard of; while the 2020 doesn't support extended addressing, it
does support multiple address spaces, so what they did was move
all the symbols into a separate address space. This was called
'hiding' symbols and I thought it was great because it made them
harder to smash. However, all of that went out the window with
5.0, which fully supported extended addressing.
<br>
<br>
DEC completely walked away from the 2020 and symbol hiding for
the Tops-20 5.0 monitor. In fact, I remember an SPR response
scolding an acquaintance of mine for trying to turn symbol
hiding back on in 5.0. Basically, it was a corporate,
'Fuggetaboutit'. Pity; for user programs, Tenex and Tops-20 had
something called IDDT (Invisible DDT) which kept the symbols in
a completely different process space, effectively making them
impossible to smash, no matter how sick your program got. Symbol
hiding was cool. Not that I'm going to try figure out how to
turn it back on...
<br>
<br>
You know, I have been out to Pittsburgh a few times. In the
1980's, Columbia flew me out there so that I could learn about
CMU's modifications to LPTSPL to support the nearly entirely
awesome Xerox 9700. I was out there again about a year ago for
a conference. Still, that's a real hike... My relatives live
in near Elizabethtown, not quite spitting distance from three
mile island (!!), so that's another four hours to New Kensington
after they're done with me. Ouch... Oh well, never say
'never'...
<br>
<br>
That's some pretty good swag you have by the way; minor
suggestion, in addition to the anti-VAXer T-shirt, you might
want to have another one that says the somewhat subtle, "If it
doesn't have 36 Bits, it isn't a Digital computer". I did know
some people who were so anti-VAX that they positively would
froth at the mouth. I could understand the frothing, given what
happened, but still, one prefers not wear one's froth on their
sleeve. It would have been a lot better for everybody had there
been more and better communication and less NIH.
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
On 4/23/20 12:20 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
On 4/22/20 11:42 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
<br>
<br>
Oh, I'm in Looooong Island, South Shore.
<br>
</blockquote>
Ahhh, New Yawwwk. You should head out this way at some
point.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I actually have relatives not far from
you in PA, but I hadn't gotten
<br>
around to noodging you yet for the distinct lack of 20's in
your
<br>
collection. I mean, you have a 4341 yet no 20? Tisk,
tisk...
<br>
</blockquote>
You sir are misinformed. There are three KS10s here.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Well, I'm pulling your leg a bit; a 20
is a seriously heavy lift. A KL
<br>
has three purposes in life: 1) Generate Heat, 2) Suck Power,
3) Run
<br>
winning code. A 2020 uses far less power, but doesn't have
extended
<br>
addressing, so it is stuck at Tops-20 4.1, which leaves out
a lot of
<br>
DECnet (and ARPAnet) stuff. Apparently, you can squeeze 5.0
in; MRC did
<br>
this, but that was MRC. Tops-20 is at version 7.0 now.
<br>
</blockquote>
Indeed.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">And both of them are seriously cranky
beasts that needed care and
<br>
feeding from trained service personnel; wire wrap and all
that (yech).
<br>
Remember, it's not a mainframe unless you can't fit it in
your house and
<br>
have to take out a second mortgage to pay for the
electricity and tons
<br>
(60 for a 20) of air conditioning.
<br>
</blockquote>
We're no strangers to cranky around here. ;)
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">So Paul Allen had a KL based 20, which
is now in the the Living Computer
<br>
museum. But that cost was apparently less than a rounding
error
<br>
compared to what he was worth. A mere monetary blip, as it
were.
<br>
</blockquote>
Yep.
<br>
<br>
-Dave
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
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