[HECnet] KLH10 noob questions

[Johnny Billquist]

Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've 
developed a few memory errors over the years. :-)

Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have 
someone who worked on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the 
discussions.

Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 
used the same codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half 
a comment on. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about the end-node only 
stuff, and yes, it was also related to the DTE. Basically, parts of the 
whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and not really 
done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on 
that one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and 
ethernet...

Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development 
never came to the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never 
supported DECnet over ethernet to start with. I remember having a 
discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage to get DECnet 
phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project 
supported from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if 
KS ever supported DECnet phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines 
or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so this does feel somewhat 
speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly with 
Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...

Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet 
adapter for the KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same 
cabinet where the massbuses were. And installing the NIA-20 removed two 
massbuses from the system. There was also the CI-20, which was similar, 
in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also installed 
in that area.

   Johnny

On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> I’m not sure if this will help.  I am the original author of much of 
> DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20.  The code base is the same for both 
> OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36.  It was 
> developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was 
> restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing 
> node.  It supported KL and KS machines.  Real KL’s were only shipped 
> with PDP-11’s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so that’s 
> how they where connected to Ethernet.  KS’s had an UNIBUS adapter, so I 
> could talk directly to NI adapters.  So even though a KL was a full 
> DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an end-node, since 
> it’s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through an -11.  I would 
> imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple NIs.
> 
> At least that’s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
> 
> Have fun!
> 
> Vern
> 
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net 
>> <mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
>>
>> On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have more than one 
>>> NIA-20 on a KL10.
>>> Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would 
>>> be of limited use, had it even been supported.
>>> (Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in 
>>> case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two 
>>> separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if 
>>> the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down 
>>> the machine anyhow.)
>>
>> Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is 
>> supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets 
>> isolated if I can; two NICs help.
>>
>>> I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest account. 
>>> Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
>>
>> Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below, 
>> curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up now, 
>> working through tips for the basics.
>>
>>> But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine on HECnet 
>>> with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to 
>>> just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
>>> I don't have any myself.
>>> Johnny
>>> On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>>>> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions, 
>>>> surely:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It 
>>>> appears it was at the least added  to the NetBSD target by Olaf 
>>>> 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by 
>>>> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>>>>
>>>> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for 
>>>> example, something like
>>>>
>>>> # DECnet adapter
>>>> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet 
>>>> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY
>>>> # IP adapter
>>>> devdef ni1 1500 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip 
>>>> enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>>>>
>>>> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on which 
>>>> I could have an account to look around?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Supratim
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
>> -
>> Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
>> Ain't got no gal to make you smile
>> Don't worry, be happy
>> - Bobby McFerrin
> 

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol