[HECnet] KLH10 noob questions

Sun Mar 10 11:41:25 PDT 2019

Keith,
    Are you sure Essex was running TOPS-20? When I was there, they were running (a heavily modified) TOPS-10 but this was way before MUD was available . If you look at Quentin’s blog (https://www.quentin.org.uk/category/retro-computing/ <https://www.quentin.org.uk/category/retro-computing/>), it shows how to build MUD from scratch and indicates they were still running TOPS-10 as late as 1986.

  John.

> On Mar 10, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Keith Halewood <Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on a debian box connected to networking via a tap interface. I've 'installed' the panda distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and decnet services running (but not autostarting at the moment). You can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I haven't set up any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
> 
> Keith
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
> Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
> To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
> Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
> 
> Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've developed a few memory errors over the years. :-)
> 
> Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have someone who worked on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the discussions.
> 
> Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 used the same codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half a comment on. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the DTE. Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on that one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and ethernet...
> 
> Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development never came to the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to start with. I remember having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage to get DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project supported from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so this does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
> 
> Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet adapter for the KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same cabinet where the massbuses were. And installing the NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the CI-20, which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also installed in that area.
> 
>   Johnny
> 
> On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> I’m not sure if this will help.  I am the original author of much of 
>> DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20.  The code base is the same for both 
>> OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36.  It 
>> was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was 
>> restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing 
>> node.  It supported KL and KS machines.  Real KL’s were only shipped 
>> with PDP-11’s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so 
>> that’s how they where connected to Ethernet.  KS’s had an UNIBUS 
>> adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters.  So even though a KL 
>> was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an 
>> end-node, since it’s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through 
>> an -11.  I would imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple NIs.
>> 
>> At least that’s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
>> 
>> Have fun!
>> 
>> Vern
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net 
>>> <mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have more than one
>>>> NIA-20 on a KL10.
>>>> Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would 
>>>> be of limited use, had it even been supported.
>>>> (Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in 
>>>> case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two 
>>>> separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if 
>>>> the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down 
>>>> the machine anyhow.)
>>> 
>>> Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is 
>>> supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets 
>>> isolated if I can; two NICs help.
>>> 
>>>> I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest account. 
>>>> Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
>>> 
>>> Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below, 
>>> curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up 
>>> now, working through tips for the basics.
>>> 
>>>> But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine on HECnet 
>>>> with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to 
>>>> just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
>>>> I don't have any myself.
>>>> Johnny
>>>> On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>>>>> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
>>>>> surely:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It 
>>>>> appears it was at the least added  to the NetBSD target by Olaf 
>>>>> 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
>>>>> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for 
>>>>> example, something like
>>>>> 
>>>>> # DECnet adapter
>>>>> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet 
>>>>> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1 1500 ni20 
>>>>> dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>>>>> 
>>>>> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on 
>>>>> which I could have an account to look around?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Supratim
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
>>> -
>>> Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to make you 
>>> smile Don't worry, be happy
>>> - Bobby McFerrin
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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