[HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Supratim Sanyal
supratim at riseup.net
Sun Mar 10 17:08:43 PDT 2019
^Ecease now ? sounds like I am sending a notice from lawyers every time
I shut it down! :)
On 3/10/19 3:49 PM, Keith Halewood wrote:
> On node 29.108 (WALACH), there’s a ‘guestuser’ account with the password
> ‘top20guest’
>
> Keith
>
> *From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On
> Behalf Of *Keith Halewood
> *Sent:* 10 March 2019 19:30
> *To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
> *Subject:* RE: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
>
> Hi John,
>
> You are almost certainly correct and this would have been around 86-87.
> I don’t recall using a PPN to login though. To be honest, the only
> PPN-like thing I remember is my VMS UIC [210,035] which followed me from
> my very first account on the computing department’s VAX11/780.
>
> Keith
>
> *From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
> [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On Behalf Of *John Forecast
> *Sent:* 10 March 2019 18:41
> *To:* hecnet at update.uu.se <mailto:hecnet at update.uu.se>
> *Subject:* Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
>
> Keith,
>
> Are you sure Essex was running TOPS-20? When I was there, they were
> running (a heavily modified) TOPS-10 but this was way before MUD was
> available . If you look at Quentin’s blog
> (https://www.quentin.org.uk/category/retro-computing/), it shows how to
> build MUD from scratch and indicates they were still running TOPS-10 as
> late as 1986.
>
> John.
>
> On Mar 10, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Keith Halewood
> <Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org <mailto:Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org>>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
> http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on
> a debian box connected to networking via a tap interface. I've
> 'installed' the panda distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and
> decnet services running (but not autostarting at the moment). You
> can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I haven't set up
> any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
> Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
>
> Keith
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
> [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
> Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
> To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
> Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
>
> Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've
> developed a few memory errors over the years. :-)
>
> Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to
> have someone who worked on the code around. It should be a big
> benefit in the discussions.
>
> Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and
> TOPS-20 used the same codebase. DECnet routing is something I can
> only make half a comment on. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about
> the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the DTE.
> Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to
> the PDP-11, and not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm
> sure you can correct me on that one. But this also relates to the
> comments below about KL and ethernet...
>
> Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20
> development never came to the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So,
> a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to start with. I remember
> having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage
> to get DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind
> of project supported from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm
> also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet phase III, but maybe it
> did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so this
> does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a
> lot, but mostly with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
>
> Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an
> ethernet adapter for the KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed
> in the same cabinet where the massbuses were. And installing the
> NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the
> CI-20, which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses,
> and I think was also installed in that area.
>
> Johnny
>
> On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I’m not sure if this will help. I am the original author of
> much of
> DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. The code base is the same for both
> OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. It
> was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
> restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full
> routing
> node. It supported KL and KS machines. Real KL’s were only
> shipped
> with PDP-11’s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
> that’s how they where connected to Ethernet. KS’s had an UNIBUS
> adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. So even
> though a KL
> was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
> end-node, since it’s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was
> through
> an -11. I would imagine that you could configure a KS with
> multiple NIs.
>
> At least that’s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
>
> Have fun!
>
> Vern
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal
> <supratim at riseup.net <mailto:supratim at riseup.net>
> <mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
>
> On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have
> more than one
> NIA-20 on a KL10.
> Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I
> suspect it would
> be of limited use, had it even been supported.
> (Yes, you could have had a second interface for just
> fallback, in
> case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would
> have two
> separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would
> only be if
> the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to
> power down
> the machine anyhow.)
>
>
> Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only
> one NIC is
> supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
> isolated if I can; two NICs help.
>
> I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest
> account.
> Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from
> inside TOPS-20.
>
>
> Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
> curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda
> release up
> now, working through tips for the basics.
>
> But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine
> on HECnet
> with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for
> others to
> just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
> I don't have any myself.
> Johnny
> On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>
> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20.
> Newbie questions,
> surely:
>
> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that
> supports VDE2? (It
> appears it was at the least added to the NetBSD
> target by Olaf
> 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory
> Smelosky, going by
> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>
> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network
> adapters, for
> example, something like
>
> # DECnet adapter
> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde
> ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1
> 1500 ni20
> dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip
> enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>
> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on
> HECnet now on
> which I could have an account to look around?
>
> Thanks
> Supratim
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
> -
> Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to
> make you
> smile Don't worry, be happy
> - Bobby McFerrin
>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> ||
> Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
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