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[Johnny Billquist]

Oh how quickly people forget. :-)

The correct quote is:
If your computer don't have 36 bits, you are not playing with a full DEC.

The "mil-spec" VT100 was probably the RT100: 
https://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter8.html (oh how I hate the "everything 
should be using https"...)

   Johnny

On 2020-04-24 00:15, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> Sir, I stand *corrected* and do humbly admit my errors.  I didn't see 
> anything Orange on the mac.io website, so I just assumed...  I didn't go 
> to the Facebook site because I won't have a thing to do with their 
> policies, stated or covert.
> 
> A memory surfaced and I realized that I was also completely wrong about 
> the 2020's networking capabilities, too.  In 1979, DEC's Federal Systems 
> group had a 2020 on the ARPAnet and I used it to send email to some of 
> my pals at MIT LCS when I working 2nd and 3rd shift.  So the hardware 
> existed to communicate with an IMP and MIT used it implement TCP/IP on 
> ITS.  This is simulated by the KLH10 2020 implementation and that's how 
> ITS communicates today.
> 
> Federal Systems was a real hike from manufacturing in Marlboro where I 
> used to hang out; three buildings away.  It was also notable for having 
> mil-spec VT100's.  Instead of plastic, they were made out of very thick 
> metal, I think maybe machined aluminum.  The cables where sheathed in 
> metal and the connectors were substantially enlarged and strengthened.  
> The display glass also had a dense metal screen in front of it.  They 
> really looked like they could withstand a hand grenade and weighed a 
> ton... Well that's what I thought at the time, another alternative that 
> didn't occur to me until decades later was that all this just could have 
> been RF shielding.
> 
> I had left DEC and was at Columbia before the Internet role out, so I 
> don't know whether Tops-20 4.1, the last official release for the 2020, 
> supported TCP/IP.  I just can't remember, darn it...  I know that 
> Tops-20 5.0 supported TCP/IP AND that MRC was able to port 5.0 to the 
> 2020.  LingLing was on the Internet from time to time.  That must have 
> been some hack; by late version 3, it was seen that the monitor was 
> running out of address space and when the hardware folks suggested 
> eliminating the symbol table, the monitor folks flipped as debugging 
> would have been effectively hatcheted.
> 
> The solution for 4.1 was one of the finest hacks I have ever heard of; 
> while the 2020 doesn't support extended addressing, it does support 
> multiple address spaces, so what they did was move all the symbols into 
> a separate address space.  This was called 'hiding' symbols and I 
> thought it was great because it made them harder to smash.  However, all 
> of that went out the window with 5.0, which fully supported extended 
> addressing.
> 
> DEC completely walked away from the 2020 and symbol hiding for the 
> Tops-20 5.0 monitor.  In fact, I remember an SPR response scolding an 
> acquaintance of mine for trying to turn symbol hiding back on in 5.0.  
> Basically, it was a corporate, 'Fuggetaboutit'.  Pity; for user 
> programs, Tenex and Tops-20 had something called IDDT (Invisible DDT) 
> which kept the symbols in a completely different process space, 
> effectively making them impossible to smash, no matter how sick your 
> program got. Symbol hiding was cool.  Not that I'm going to try figure 
> out how to turn it back on...
> 
> You know, I have been out to Pittsburgh a few times.  In the 1980's, 
> Columbia flew me out there so that I could learn about CMU's 
> modifications to LPTSPL to support the nearly entirely awesome Xerox 
> 9700.  I was out there again about a year ago for a conference.  Still, 
> that's a real hike...  My relatives live in near Elizabethtown, not 
> quite spitting distance from three mile island (!!), so that's another 
> four hours to New Kensington after they're done with me.  Ouch...  Oh 
> well, never say 'never'...
> 
> That's some pretty good swag you have by the way; minor suggestion, in 
> addition to the anti-VAXer T-shirt, you might want to have another one 
> that says the somewhat subtle, "If it doesn't have 36 Bits, it isn't a 
> Digital computer".  I did know some people who were so anti-VAX that 
> they positively would froth at the mouth.  I could understand the 
> frothing, given what happened, but still, one prefers not wear one's 
> froth on their sleeve.  It would have been a lot better for everybody 
> had there been more and better communication and less NIH.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> On 4/23/20 12:20 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> On 4/22/20 11:42 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh, I'm in Looooong Island, South Shore.
>>    Ahhh, New Yawwwk.  You should head out this way at some point.
>>
>>> I actually have relatives not far from you in PA, but I hadn't gotten
>>> around to noodging you yet for the distinct lack of 20's in your
>>> collection.  I mean, you have a 4341 yet no 20?  Tisk, tisk...
>>    You sir are misinformed.  There are three KS10s here.
>>
>>> Well, I'm pulling your leg a bit; a 20 is a seriously heavy lift.  A KL
>>> has three purposes in life: 1) Generate Heat, 2) Suck Power, 3) Run
>>> winning code.  A 2020 uses far less power, but doesn't have extended
>>> addressing, so it is stuck at Tops-20 4.1, which leaves out a lot of
>>> DECnet (and ARPAnet) stuff.  Apparently, you can squeeze 5.0 in; MRC did
>>> this, but that was MRC.  Tops-20 is at version 7.0 now.
>>    Indeed.
>>
>>> And both of them are seriously cranky beasts that needed care and
>>> feeding from trained service personnel; wire wrap and all that (yech).
>>> Remember, it's not a mainframe unless you can't fit it in your house and
>>> have to take out a second mortgage to pay for the electricity and tons
>>> (60 for a 20) of air conditioning.
>>    We're no strangers to cranky around here. ;)
>>
>>> So Paul Allen had a KL based 20, which is now in the the Living Computer
>>> museum.  But that cost was apparently less than a rounding error
>>> compared to what he was worth.  A mere monetary blip, as it were.
>>    Yep.
>>
>>            -Dave
>>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol